Honest Answers - You First

Rob jumped into the conversation I've had with Michael (perhaps that will inspire Michael to keep on). Rob's present course is to bait me into doing all of the reasoning while they provide no documentation, reason, or substance for their position.

Rob

Marvin, that’s not how the burden of proof works. You are presenting your case, that means the burden falls on you. If you are going to try to make a convincing argument, you can at least attempt to make a sound one.

Marvin McKenzie

Rob

Thank you for commenting. I hope you have taken the time to read the page Michael has responded to. (https://marvinmckenzie.org/why/god-exists). In this case it is how it works. I have presented arguments which support our knowledge that God is. Michael has, in essence, simply said, "I don't believe your arguments." That's his right. I am now asking him to give me a thought-out and reasoned argument for his "faith" that God does not exist. If you would care to read my page and then present an argument why you "know" God does not exist, I would be happy to read it.

Rob

You’re still getting it backwards

Marvin McKenzie

 My FB page, my website, my rules. I would be thrilled to converse with you provided you read my page and respond with well reasoned and thought out input. I am not interested in disagreeing just because a person disagrees. 

Marvin McKenzie

In the Fields

Honest Answers - Honest?

 Honest Answers - Honest?

I am happy to report that, so far, my conversation with Michael has not concluded. Micheal began his conversation by questioning the honesty of my honest answers.

 

Michael

Honest? Clicked the link and saw “Baptist”... I doubt there is any honesty there.. and even less science...

 

 

Marvin McKenzie

 Did you happen to read the pages Michael?

 

Michael

Marvin McKenzie yes... and there is very little science in them.

 

Marvin McKenzie

Ok. Thank you for reading. Would you tell me which pages you read? Would you like to give a specific objection we could consider?

 

Michael 

there is a lot that is just plain wrong. For example:

———

1. This arrangement in nature tells us that nature’s cause must have enough intelligence to design the arrangement.

A big bang could not have done that. Sure, an explosion is a cause

—-

Must have an intelligence? You provide nothing to support this.

The big bang was not an explosion.

And the bias towards god being the intelligence is all over the place...

Where did god come from? Please don’t invoked special pleading.

But overall, this rabbit hole of false analysis just muddies everything. To the point that you don’t even know what you are trying to prove..

If devolves into a how we know what we know and never addresses what we know.

Just show be evidence for god... simple enough request.... then show us this god created anything..

Stop with the mental masterbation....

In the end, the dishonest is this. You don’t have faith in god because if how the universe was created. And when pushed into a corner because your evidence is bad.... you just say... we just take it on faith.... what is the point of even addressing science if you won’t follow the evidence... and believe something with no evidence....

To put it simply:

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

 

Marvin McKenzie

So, you are saying first of all that you read the page on Why we know God exists? Thank you for reading it. Did you read either of the other two pages?

Michael, obviously there is a bias toward God on the page. The whole premise of the page is that God is. I begin where the Bible begins, Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Must have intelligence.

Can you demonstrate anything anywhere with intelligence or design that has been observed to come from a non-intelligence source?

God is the intelligence.

Provide a plausible alternative intelligence

Big Bang

I have done enough research on the subject to know that, even among the most respected evolutionary scientists, there is no agreement what the “big bang” was.

Where did God come from?

He is God Michael, we came from Him.

Men have known God exists the entire existence of mankind. My article provides ample and reasonable evidence for a man to seek to know the God that all men everywhere have known, talked of, written about, worshiped, and found guidance from.

So now it falls to you.

Provide observable, reproducible, repeatable evidence of another intelligence besides God.

Provide observable, reproducible, repeatable evidence of an intelligent design that has been manufactured from a non-intelligent cause.

Provide for me your understanding of what the big bang was

Thank again for reading and for the conversation.

 

Michael

We need to establish a god exists before continuing.... I doubt that will happen.

But you also have a problem. I think you would agree that your God has intelligence. What intelligent source did God come from?

It is not up to me to demonstrate, you are making the claim.

You say that God is that intelligence... without supporting the claim. The bible is not evidence. I can easily say universe pooping pixies created the universe. And you would have to accept it if I went by your logic.

Are you serious? I ask the question, where did God come from... and you answer a different question.

No, it does not fall to me. You make claims, support nothing and then think I have the burden of proof...

Do you have anything beyond the debunked claims you present?

 

Marvin McKenzie

The difference between you and me is not the existence of God, but the basis of our belief. You seem to deny the existence of God, but you have no proof. I do believe in the existence of God. I have a reasoned, rational, l and time tested argument for my faith. I would love for you to provide the same for your faith that God does not exist. As to the Bible, it is the authority supporting my faith that God exists. You must have some authority to support your faith that God does not exist. What would that authority be?

Burden of proof… The reason it falls to you is that I have presented my case. You have challenged my presentation, and I am happy you have done so. But since you are the challenger, I simply ask you to give some worked-out presentation of that challenge.

 

Marvin McKenzie

In the Fields

 

Honest Answers - Mocked

Honest Answers - Mocked

After seeing the advertisements for my web pages titled "Why? Honest Answers to Sincere Questions", rather than engaging in intelligent conversation, Walter preferred to attempt mockery through the use of multiple snide memes.

Walter 

Please, provide proof/evidence of your Sky Daddy and your ridiculous claims.

(Walter then used a meme intended to mock Christians as having no evidence)

Marvin McKenzie

Please provide proof of the single cell organism all life is supposed to have evolved from. Please provide incontrovertible evidence that your faith is more than faith.

Walter 

(responded with another meme attacking the concept of faith)

Marvin McKenzie

Exactly. As does the evolutionist. No factual evidence whatsoever. They just believe because they were told to believe.

Walter 

We have know for over 200 years that evolution is true.

(He backed this claim with another meme meant to mock the Christian position of Creationism and another claiming that Christians are upset at atheists for holding us accountable.)

Marvin McKenzie

Evolution- the belief that one germ given enough time and mistakes can become all that exists in the earth

Marvin McKenzie

This is not scientific truth - only speculation. Evolution is unprovable, inconsistent with evidence and has multiple weird theories to attempt an answer to the inconsistencies. The only consistent foundation of evolution is an utter denial of God and a sledgehammer insistence that they be accepted without question

Walter

Do you read with comprehension?

Marvin McKenzie

I read. Do you?

 I have presented clear arguments supported by science and reasonable evidence. So far all you’ve presented are silly memes designed to mock a position you almost certainly have never fully investigated

Walter

Evolution is not a belief. It is a fact. Prove me wrong.

Marvin McKenzie

No, prove it is a fact. Produce one piece of evolutionary theory that can be observed, tested and reproduced.

Marvin McKenzie

In the Fields

Honest Answers - Challenged

 Honest Answers - Challenged

 

I created several pages on my website^[1] meant to be used as an evangelistic tool. I’ve also created simple business cards to point people to those pages. I then began advertising those pages online in an effort to get people to read the pages and to share with others. The advertisements have been successful. In just a little over 5 days there have been over twenty-one hundred people reached with three hundred fifty people responding in some way. I have also been pleased to have had three people engage in conversations with me. I thought I would share those conversations here.

 

Ian 

Lots of non-answers to real questions.

The Bible has been rewritten so many times there’s literally a 0% chance of it being true, I mean even before king James did his rewrite (which affected more than just the differences between them now) the romans basically penned the entire New Testament as propaganda for them taking over then-jerusalem

 

Me

Ian, you asked no questions. You made unfounded assertions. I would love to have an honest conversation with you.

 

Ian 

Dude you’re wrong. you’re just trying to sell s— to gullible people, stop trying to “prove” it’s all real when even if it was it’s made to not be prove-able

The whole point of it is faith bro, what you’re doing is greed (a sin)

 

Me

Thanks for calling me “Bro” you at least recognize we are human kin. 

 May I ask where you have your “proof”? You see, it is as much an act of faith to deny what men have always known from their innermost being. I have 4000 years worth of documents, the most widely circulated, copied, and accepted in all the world. What hard evidence have you looked into to support your faith?

 

Ian 

Yeah but you don’t really, you have a document that’s a few years that’s been copied and rewritten and translated probably billions of times

And what proof do you need? I’m not making any claims that a trip to a museum or a conversation with an archaeologist wouldn’t solve

I’m not acting on faith by saying “I don’t believe you” I’d be acting on faith if I believed you with no evidence being present

Just stop pretending you have the answers man, even the pope or your local pastor would tell you nobody has all the answers

 

Me

What you do is believe the museum curator or the archeologist without verifying their claims. Isn’t it true you assume they are correct because you assume Bible believers are incorrect? Isn’t it true that you have spent little to no actual time seriously researching your own position? Such is a position of faith. You believe because you have been led to believe. I have at least taken the time to consider the evidence on both sides. I have been to many museums. I have read many archeological pieces. How much time have you spent in a Bible believing church and in studying the Bible personally?

Marvin McKenzie

In the Fields

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^[1] https://marvinmckenzie.org/why

 

Servant Leadership is a Fallacy

 Servant Leadership is a Fallacy

 

Picture, if you will, a field of lush, emerald green grass. To the side is a fresh stream of cool, babbling water. In the midst of the pasture is a flock of two hundred, three hundred, maybe more sheep.

 

By and by, the shepherd calls for his sheep. First one, then two, and three hear his voice. Their ears pick up, their eyes fix upon him, and they begin to move toward him. Suddenly the flock sees the motion, hears the shepherd’s voice, and begins to follow. 

 

Can the sheep in the front actually be called leaders? I tell you, they are not. They merely heard the shepherd’s voice first. 

 

Servant leadership is a fallacy. To consider oneself a leader in the Christian world is a true fallacy and the cause of much heartache in the Master’s fields. We are at best followers. We are our best when we are followers. It may be that we followed ahead of some others, but ours is not to look around, organize the flock and determine how best they can follow. The best we can do is to keep our eyes on the Shepherd, follow Him carefully, and allow others behind us to follow the Shepherd in our path. 

 

Marvin McKenzie

In the fields

We are no longer Christians

 We are no longer Christians

Acts 11:26c (KJV)

… And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

I didn’t say we are no longer a Christian nation. That places the problem on someone else’s doorstep. I said that we are no longer Christians. We do not have the character of Jesus Christ.

• We are not salt. 
• We have lost our savor. 
• We are not light
• We run from the darkness instead of to it

We are no longer Christians when we behave in a manner that Christ would not.

We may be saved, on our way to heaven, our sins are forgiven, and the Holy Ghost of God lives in us, but we are no longer Christians if “the life that I now live” is not Christ living in me.[1]

 

Marvin McKenzie

In the fields

A video copy of this is available at, Rumble. Click here.

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[1] Galatians 2:20 (KJV)

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Should the government Tax Churches to Pay for Universal Health Care?

 Should the government Tax Churches to Pay for Universal Health Care?

This question was asked of me by a concerned member who saw it proposed by a Christian friend.

Of course, very few preachers in the United States are going to jump onboard an idea like that. We all want to keep as much money as we can. Many churches operate in a cash flow crunch, budgeting every dime they receive every year. To add a tax would, in some cases, bankrupt them. This is not, in my opinion, an adequate answer to the question. I am certain it would not be an adequate answer to the money-hungry world, or to those leaning upon the government for their health care. 

My concern is not merely that I don’t like it, but it is unwise, unconstitutional, historically trending, and unbiblical.

It is unwise

Churches exist for a purpose other than the health of the nation’s people. Churches exist for the spiritual well-being of people. To burden churches with a duty that is not their own will distract the churches from their purpose and ultimately lead to the further damage of the spiritual condition of our country.

It is unconstitutional

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

The United States Constitution forbids the government from interfering with church function. To place a tax upon churches affects both that church's establishment and its free exercise. 

It is a historical trend

Social Security effectively took from the American family, and from local churches, the responsibility and then the ability to care for its own. Some would argue that the government took upon itself that role because family and churches were not doing it well enough. Can you honestly say the government is doing it better? We are bankrupting our government with healthcare and other things government should not have its hands in so that now this conversation is taking place because the government has to find new sources to pay for what they now realize they cannot pay for and have never paid for well.

It is unbiblical

The whole concept of allowing churches to exist tax-exempt finds its roots in the Old Testament. The tribe of Levi was separated from the rest of the tribes to belong wholly to God. They were not to carry the same responsibilities as the other tribes in terms of government service, taxes, or other burdens. They were to be cared for through the sacrifices and offerings of the people. They were not given a lot, as the other tribes were. They were to be given property, cities, and other necessities throughout the communities they served.

I think one of the problems we have today is that some churches (should I rather say “religious organizations”?)have lost sight of their calling. They have developed elaborate denominational systems. They have built extravagant structures. They have created a perception of incredible wealth protected from government taxing, and providing for an even greater collection of wealth. We need to get back to local churches that know and care for their own congregations.

Marvin McKenzie

In the field